"Why Does Fashion Have a Gender Anyway?" Interview with Do As We Say, Not As They Did Podcast

For a lot of people, fashion is treated like a rulebook. Men wear this. Women wear that. Neutral means beige. Androgyny means oversized. And somewhere along the way, we collectively decided that clothing needed to come with a gender attached to it in the first place.

But what happens when someone starts questioning those rules?

In this episode of Do As We Say, Not As They Did, Rae Hill of Origami Customs joins Dr Nerd Love (Harris) and Dr. Liz Powell for a conversation about gender exploration, attraction, transition, body image, and the complicated ways people project their own expectations onto the people they love.

The episode starts with an introduction to Origami Customs that dives into binders, gaffs, gender-affirming clothing, and the realities of designing garments that are actually safe, accessible, and made for real bodies. 

But things quickly spiral into a much messier conversation after the hosts react to a Reddit post from someone struggling with their partner’s gender expression and changing fashion sense.

From “respectability politics” and passing culture to why androgynous fashion somehow always ends up looking like a sad beige tech startup, this episode asks a bigger question underneath all of it:

Why are we so uncomfortable letting people explore who they are?

It’s funny, thoughtful, occasionally chaotic, and packed with conversations about identity, relationships, and the freedom that can come from finally dressing like yourself instead of who the world told you to be.

Subscribe to the "Do As We Say, Not As They Did," Podcast on YouTube, watch the video or read the transcript below to dive into the conversation about gender, fashion, relationships, and why self-expression should never come with a dress code.

Full Transcript for "Why Does Fashion Have a Gender Anyway?" an Interview with the Do As We Say, Not As They Did Podcast

Harris: 

What is going on, internet? Do not adjust your set. And if you're watching this on TV, how? This is “Do as We Say, Not As They Did,” the only podcast out there to talk about all that's going on in the dating discourse, relationship rehab, and of course, sexuality salons and seminars. I am your host…

Liz: 

Actually, the only relationship podcast that is in existence right now. 

Harris: 

Yep. I'm sorry. The Dildors is gone. You know, Girl On The Net, gone. Less said about what we had to do to Dan Savage. 

Liz: 

He will understand someday. It'll be okay. 

Harris: 

Like, you know, had to do that. Dear Prudy was starting to really lead into this, and just no, sorry. Had to protect the corners. 

But of course, I should let us know who we all are. I am Dr. Nerd Love, also known as Harris O'Malley. And usually I do that the other way around. And with me, as always, is my co-host. They are a real doctor, unlike me. They are a sex educator. The Tango to my Cash. Someone who is definitely not planning long-term revenge for the nutmaxing episode. Dr. Liz Powell.

Liz:

Definitely not planning long-term revenge. Definitely not going to scout the absolute most horrendous things I could find to inflict upon you because, oh my god. That was like I'm on the edge of making you watch the full Denver season of Love is Blind in retaliation for that cuz boy howdy was that a horrific episode.

Harris: 

I grew up in the era of rotten.com. Come at me, bro.  

Liz:

Oh my god, so bad, so bad, so bad. But we have an amazing amazing thing today, we have a guest, our first podcast guest that we have recorded with. We have Rae Hill here with us. Rae, like me, uses they/them pronouns. They are a non-binary advocate, educator, and designer.

They founded Origami Customs, which I have shouted out before in some of my different work, a community advocacy program and clothing line for folks of all genders, bodies, and abilities. They work with over 100 organizations on five continents to get gender affirming garments and education to people for free. I'm so psyched to have you on, Rae. Welcome to the show. 

Rae:

Thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here, and as your first guest, this is very exciting. 

Liz:

Yeah. So, tell us a bit about like Origami Customs and how that came to be, and what you do with that. 

Rae:

Yeah, for sure. So, that's the good overview. As a clothing company, what we do is gender affirming clothing that's all custom-made. It's for everyone, but we really specialize in items for the trans and gender diverse community because, you know, we don't want them to just be an afterthought. It is really with our community in mind. 

We make all of the garments here in Montreal. It's a team of queer and trans people who make all the garments, and all of the proceeds of the company, all the profits go back into the above living wages and the gender affirmation health care of the people who are making the garments. So they get to transition through their work and therefore then help the rest of the community abroad who get to have these wonderful gender affirmation garments. 

And then I've been doing this for 16 years, the company itself. And then about halfway through that, I decided there were a lot of people who had financial barriers to accessing this type of product, especially because we are ethically made. It's not your typical Amazon pricing. So I figured, “How can we get this out to people for free?” And I started our Community Program. 

So I started with a few organizations in the States, and now we're at about 110 worldwide. It's a combination of kind of healthcare centers and grassroots organizations, NGO's and student unions, and things like that where we get to work with them and they basically give away our gaffs and our binders for people who have access barriers. 

What Are Chest Binders?

Liz:

Amazing. So for anybody listening who doesn't know, because like I know about binders. Yeah. I know about gaffs but haven't used one because I don't have a biop penis, unfortunately. Can you tell people about like binders and gaffs and what they are and why they matter? 

Rae:

Yes of course. So those are our two kinds of wheelhouse types of clothing that we make. They're the two most common kinds of gender-affirming clothing pieces. A binder is something like it's a type of shirt that's worn on the top. It's a very tight compression garment, and it's used to create a kind of flatter or “masculinized” chest. I use the air quotes in that because not everyone wants to feel masculine on the chest tissue. 

So, however someone identifies with that, we help to minimize it in a safe way and obviously in a way that still allows for people to have long-term health and can breathe easily and all of that stuff. We want to make sure that we're sending out really safe and high-quality products. 

A gaff, conversely, is a pair of underwear that's worn by anyone with a penis who wants to flatten or otherwise kind of hide their genitalia, for again, quote unquote kind of like a more “feminized” front, especially under maybe a tight piece of clothing. 

So often this is for a transgender woman, but really across the board, as we know these are tools that even cis people can wear. There's no identity label attached to a piece of clothing, but yeah, generally we do see these as gender affirmation pieces within the trans community. 

Liz:

Yeah. And I'm so glad you brought up the safety piece about binders. A lot of people who don't bind or don't know people in their lives who bind don't recognize how dangerous binding can be when done improperly.

Harris:

Which is what I was about to ask. Like, what are the safety concerns? Because obviously we're not just talking about like a pair of skims or whatever, the other like other forms of shapewear.

Rae:

Yeah. So I mean, we're lucky in that there have been a lot of long-term studies that have come out about binding in the last couple of years. Before that, it was all really like word of mouth. And there have been a lot of ways that people have kept themselves safe and affirmed that were less healthy and less flexible in times past. 

And we can really kind of like see how that was necessary, and the people did the things to keep them affirmed and safe in situations that were very like, not trans-affirming. And now we have a lot more information to say if it's possible to use these types of items that we're building for more flexibility. We're building with different materials than we used to. 

For example, ACE bandages used to be a common tool in the past to bind a chest down with, but they don't allow the flexibility for someone to be able to have a full breath. So we did see some long-term effects with the rib cage, with the muscular skeletal system, with some of the like the muscles up here in the back, kind of a range of things, and as well issues with people's breath, especially people who are more inclined to things like asthma. So there are definitely some things to keep in mind. 

I do a whole talk about gender affirming garments and disability. I could talk for like two hours on that. There's lots there. But overall, there are a couple of different things that we know now to allow people to make the safest choices that they can. And the binders that we build because we're sending them off all over the world, I want to make sure that they're fitting properly and there's no way to misuse them. 

So, you know, they're all made of stretch materials. It means that they're all safe for things like swimming, or, for example, a child who's very active. And because we also do custom sizing, it allows us to make sure that we've got the right fit for someone, rather than them just guessing or even sizing down because they think it'll be better, when really they're going to have…

Liz:

When it actually causes more problems, yeah. You know, improper binding is not necessarily dangerous, but it can be. You can have issues with the rib compression. There can be issues because there's enervation under the armpit area. You can end up with nerve issues, which can cause damage to some of the nerves under there. 

Lymph nodes, blood flow issues. Because, especially like in the bad old days, people would put on like two or three sports bras. And if you're getting the compression in a way that is even all the way around the rib cage, what tends to happen is it compresses those more delicate areas that have those more damageable tissues. 

Rae:

Yeah. 

Liz:

And I think it's great that we have so many options these days. You know, I'm someone who loves the idea of a binder, but I have large breasts, and it's just always a weird, I don't know. I've never found a binding experience that has worked for me. I looked for a while at getting the trans tape. Have you seen that? It's like the skin color tape that you can use to bind. I thought about doing that for a minute, but then I was too lazy, so I did that. 

Rae:

It is a lot of work, but it does work for a lot of people, especially people with more chest tissue who find binding to be uncomfortable. And for some people, it also really doesn't work because it is a lot of work to move the tissue into the right position and keep it there. You know, it's a whole thing, but then you leave it on for a couple of days, and you don't have to worry about it. You don't have the same compression. It's a really great tool as well. 

Liz:

Yeah, totally awesome tool. But yeah, I think it's so great that we have options these days. You know, even like 10, 15 years ago, there would be like a couple of companies you could get good binders from, and everybody knew the same couple of companies. But now there's so much more variety and so many more options. And it's great to see all of the ways that that is diversifying and creating just the ability for people to find something that works right for them. 

Rae:

Yeah, absolutely. I'm super glad that there are so many options on the board because some of the original options also were medical binders, which are actually something completely different that are created for someone coming out of a surgical procedure, and they're meant to be much less flexible because you're not moving, right? And people really wanted that type of compression, but didn't understand that it was for a totally different use.

Harris:

And people have been really kind of leaning into the deliberate confusion between like a medical binder and the sort of like binders that you're selling. Like recently, you know, RFK Jr. has been making all sorts of threatening noises for people who sell binders to trans folks, saying that they are violating all sorts of FDA laws. 

Rae:

Yes. Many people got letters to the effect. 

Harris:

It's mindbogglingly stupid. 

Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and you know, transphobia is really big in fascism, so not entirely surprising. But the accessibility piece, too, I think, is so important. You know, binders can be really difficult to put on and take off. I know there's a company and creator that I follow on YouTube called Liberare. They do like magnetic bras for people with mobility issues.

And she's started working on a magnetic binder, which is like such a cool idea and so intriguing. It's probably going to take ages, but I love the idea of creating something that, even if you have upper limb differences, even if you have very limited hand mobility or arm or shoulder mobility, there could be an option for you. 

Rae:

Absolutely. Yeah. We just get to innovate from here on.

Liz:

So now, I have found a couple of things to inflict on both of you, but Harris, you may have a question first. 

What Is Tucking and Gaffing?

Harris:

Well, yeah. I was also curious about the mechanics of the gaff that you were saying, because just as someone who does have a biop penis, I'm like, what are the mechanics of that kind of make me go, how where where is everything getting folded? What's what what's the deal there?

Rae:

Yeah, I can give you a very quick rundown. So gaffing and tucking go hand in hand, but they're different terms for similar things. Tucking is the act of basically taking your testicles and lifting them back where they came from into your inguinal canals, and you're wrapping your penis down over that area and pulling everything flattened towards the back. So that is tucking. You can use a gaff to hold it in place. You can also use tape or other things to hold it in place. 

The gaffs that we make are great because it's just a pair of underwear you can like pull on. And it also means you can take them on and off throughout the day. You know, when you go to the bathroom, it's pretty easy. If you're at work, if you're at school, this is a thing that's really great to be able to adjust. You're not stuck in this position until you're at home. 

The basic physics of a gaff is that it's more stretchy widthwise and less stretchy vertically. So, we're kind of using that force to hold everything in position while the width-ways will more comfortably kind of come up over your hips. And then you kind of tug it up to hold everything in place. 

It's the same type of compression material as we're seeing in a binder, like a very flexible but dense mesh, so it's nice and breathable. And then what we call the gusset is the piece that goes between the legs, both on gendered men's and women's underwear. And because these are built more like traditional feminine women's underwear, we just make that section bigger to allow for everyone's anatomy. 

And for us, we actually customize that as well. So, depending on whether someone has had or is on hormone replacement therapy, their genitalia might be different because of that. Obviously, everyone's body in general is different, and so we allow for the flexibility of that fit in that area as well. Does that make sense? Please feel free to let me know if not.

Liz:

It's so cool. I think it's so cool.

Harris:

It does. It's interesting because that's like an aspect I had never really thought about before. Like a lot of it is just stuff that I am aware that it exists, but never really had reason to sit there and go, "What is the difference between these? What, how does that work?" So yeah. No, it's great. It's great hearing about like, getting a little more information on exactly what all of this is doing. And how it's like helping people present themselves. 

Rae:

Yeah. And it's so common for cis people as well. Look at drag queens. This is actually something that's used very regularly outside of the trans community, and you know they evolved with trans women, and also drag queens innovated a lot of the different techniques we see with taping as well, which is more something that you'd use for like a performance or a short period of time. But yeah, I just really think it's a great example of like gender affirmation is for everyone, not just trans people 

Gender Affirmation is for Everyone

Liz:

I mean, people who engage in a lot of gender affirming care procedures are cis people, right, like breast augmentation, that's gender affirming care, getting your jawline reshaped to look more masculine. That's gender affirming care. Like, it's all gender affirming care.

Harris:

Hair transplants, getting top surgery for men who have gynecomastia. 

Rae:

Absolutely. 

Harris:

Even stuff like calf and butt implants for dudes. 

Rae:

Oh my gosh. Yes. 

Liz:

Or pec implants. 

There Are More Gender Affirming Garments Options Than Ever

Rae:

Yep. So, these are great tools across the board. It's nice to have lots more options than we used to. 

Liz:

Yes. Yes. For sure. And I think too, like my big thing with binders is that it seems like there are kind of like two schools of thought in most binder companies. One is the skin tone and maybe a couple of basic colors, school of thought, and then one is all the colors and patterns. 

Rae:

Radical visibility. Yeah, totally. 

Liz:

It used to be much more like if you wanted a binder, it was in which skin tone would you like? The dark, the middle, or the light? And maybe we have a black one, and maybe we have a white one, and like I am way too much of a unicorn for that. That is not gonna be my life.

Rae:

Yeah. Well, there are some amazing companies now. Rebirth comes to mind, which is like a fantastic company working at the intersection of disability and queerness and transness whose thing is all about being hyper visible and using bright colors and patterns exactly for that purpose. 

And one of the reasons, though, that we kind of started off having limited tones is because these are really specific fabrics that are not often found, and they're often made for us, and we had a like me and other brands have had a hard time getting them produced in multiple colors. 

So at the beginning, there really were only a couple of colors to start off with, and now we're seeing that as this gains popularity, we're able to find more exciting materials, but it was always such a hunt at the beginning. 

Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think like some of the companies I saw doing the more fun, interesting patterns earlier on were ones that had like a panel of compression material that they would put in the front and then like do the color, like interesting pattern materials over it, right? Which kind of works, but sometimes creates some very challenging sensory experiences, at least for me. Definitely a little bit like because you can like feel the compression part, kind of like moving around inside of the other fabrics, and yeah, it's a lot. That's a lot. I don't know. I don't know. 

Rae:

I know the exact feeling that you're talking about.

Harris:

And I'm just imagining like it also must create all kinds of like seams where you may not necessarily want seams visible if you want like a more smooth, natural-looking profile, or you don't necessarily want to have the binder equivalent of like you know you know edges of your bra showing or whatnot. Which also you know, maybe that's a look you want to go for, maybe it's not a look that you want to go for. Having the options is always nice. 

Rae:

Yeah. Yeah. There was a very typical binder shape that was the only one you could find for a really long time, with the really thick straps, and it works. It's great. It's the OG binder. But now we're able to innovate in different ways and come up with different styles. I love making binders that have a very thin strap that don't look like you're wearing a binder because some people don't want that, and some people don't want high compression, too. 

We're seeing a lot of new things on the market that aren't the most compressive that you could possibly make. There are a lot of people who are like, I don't need that and I don't want that. I'm comfortable with like a low level compression, but that's not a sports bra because it's still very feminine coded, and because of where the seams are placed as well, it allows for like a little bit more lift, and people aren't always looking for that. So, it's really great to see more options across the spectrum. 

Answering Reddit's Trans Relationship Questions. Question 1: "My partner is genderfluid and their fashion sense is... stressful. Help?"

Liz:

Totally. So, do we want to read some things, react to some things?

Harris:

Yeah, you picked a couple of interesting ones for us today. 

Liz:

Yes. You're welcome. This is not yet my revenge. Just you wait. All right. So, first post. So, the first post is from Reddit from ourgenderfluid. The title of the post is "My partner is gender fluid and their fashion sense is… stressful. Help.”

So, off the bat, already off the bat, I have so many feelings when I was searching for posts. I saw this one. I was like, uh oh. Okay, here we go. All right, dive in. So, I will read it for the listeners. 

"Hello! My (AFAB, she/her) partner (AMAB, any pronouns) has never really been a stylish person, but when we first met they did dress very clean. I'm talking poorly fitting jeans, run down sneakers, t-shirt, a polo if he's feeling fancy - but the bare minimum he met, was that he was clean. He dressed like your Basic White Boy Starter Pack (he's Asian but grew up in the East Bay in California, for context), and I was okay with that because at that time we were 20-year-olds without stable jobs. We are going into our 30s next year.

 

About 3 years ago, they started discovering their femme side, and began identifying as genderfluid about a year ago. Once they found their identity, they went all out: buying blouses, skirts and dresses, wearing make up, styling their outfits with jewelry and colors. Totally get it - you spend so many years of your life hiding and never trying to get to know that side, and you go HARD once you've accepted that facet of yourself. I also totally get that dressing femme is difficult when no one has taught you how to, especially when you've never gone through the teenage pains of figuring out your style. For some, it's a life-long process!

 

I'm having a few difficulties and I'd like to hear some perspectives on how I can change my approach to this or even my mindset on it all.

 

1. We've had discussions on how their presentation affects my attraction to them, because while I am bisexual, my partner (when they present femme) is just not my taste in women. They are an attractive person in general, but just not a woman I'd feel attracted to sexually, so when they present femme, we've agreed to be just best friends with no sexual tension. This, in itself, has been weighing on me because while we've talked it out and agreed on it, I think in my head I expected it to be a 50-50 split, but I now am realizing there is no way to guarantee that I would see my masc partner 50% of the time. They present femme most of the time, maybe 80%. So, it's almost like I'm single, most of the time. I know we have to talk about it more but I was wondering if anyone else is going through this."

I know everybody's laughing. It's fine. 

Rae:

Very hard to keep… 

Harris:

Right off the bat. Oh, honey.

Liz:

Look, I know. I know that. That is point one. Fabulous. 

"2. They haven't taken care of their masc self as much as their femme self. They shop like crazy for women's clothing and make up, but have worn the same CostCo things their mom bought them for the past 10 years. They haven't shown too much interested in investing in classic men's wear. In a way, it's as if they're neglecting that side of their identity. We've had many discussions on whether they might identify more as trans, but they have been solid in their genderfluidity (lol). It just makes me sad to see them dress super sexy when femme, and then when masc, all the effort is lacking. I think part of this is my problem, too, because I expected them to mature in their masc style, but I don't think I realized I had that expectation until I saw him try THIS hard for their femme presentation. Like, I thought he just wasn't a fashion-forward person, turns out he just doesn't like men's fashion? Thing is, he DOES look at men's clothes and is like "wow that looks cool" but won't buy it because he says it won't look good on him because of his weight so he just doesn't even try, but he will easily invest time and effort into a gaudy, outdated, early 2000-esque femme outfit.

 

3. They act different when they're dressed femme, and perhaps this is just an identity-finding thing, but it's complicated because they act feminine in a very stereotypical bimbo way and sure that's a thing and it's all good and fine, but I'm having a hard time reconciling who they were and who they are now. My understanding of their genderfluidity was that they would be the same person, just look different, but they're kind of not the same person and it's been stressful watching them act like someone new when I've known them for so long. I know we go through different iterations of ourselves over the years... it's just still jarring after 3 years. Does that feeling ever go away?

 

4. My partner has been going through different fashion styles in an attempt to find what they like... but everything they choose is either really ugly or not flattering on their body, and it becomes a problem because:4a) in public, he is perceived as trans, overweight (objectively, yes they are), and poorly dressed which can be a safety issue, and4b) they see pictures of themselves and they realize the outfit is terrible and they go into a depressive dysphoric episode (which I get, because who hasn't felt shitty after feeling good in an outfit just to later realize it was NOT good?), and4c) when I try to help them style, they keep disagreeing with me with what looks good on them even though they look very good in the thing I recommended (this is least important because I know everyone has their own style and no one wants to be told what to wear, but I want to emphasize that I merely SUGGEST things and at the end of the day let them do what they want).

 

I'm no fashionista but I've found my style and know what looks good on me. I'd say what I'm feeling is akin to the feeling when parents watch their teenager go out of the house dressed crazy, but you let them do it because they have to find themselves. My partner just had a late start and so is going through the teenage pains as an adult. Maybe it's just triggering a deep childhood memory lol.

 

I love my partner and they're an amazing person. I don't know if there is anything else for me to do but to ride it out and support them until they get to where they finally feel comfortable in their skin. They have a bad awareness of their own body and its shape and its movements (ADHD things), so it's all a bit awkward and cringe and I HATE that I feel that way when I look at my partner. I feel like a terrible, shallow person, but I'm trying really hard to be supportive and loving. I just can't ignore that all these things are putting stress on me mentally, emotionally, and sexually. I'm a person who is very aware of how I move through the world and how I am perceived in society so maybe I'm just uncomfortable with how society has treated me and I am afraid for them... I don't really know. I want to change the way I think if it's possible. Anybody else in the same boat?"

How to Support Your Partner Who is Exploring Their Genderfluidity 

So the first point I want to make is that the only pronouns they use for their partner, or she uses for her partner, are they and he. She does not use she once to refer to her partner throughout the entire piece, which I think is telling. 

Rae:

I noticed that as well.

Liz:

Yeah. 

Harris:

Yeah. Especially when their partner is 80% fem most of the time or fem presenting 80% of the time.

I love the part of “Oh, we've just going to decide there is no sexual tension between us. When you're in girl mode, it's like, okay, cool. Yeah. No, that, yep. thing we can just decide. Turn the switch off on. Yep. Just girls. Just gals being pals.” 

Rae:

No problem. 

Liz:

Gal pals. Yeah. 

Rae:

I want to know how long they've been partners for. 

Liz:

Yeah. I mean, it sounds like a long time cuz they when they got together, they were 20-year-olds, and they're going into their 30s next year. So, it sounds like a decade or something. 

Rae:

Okay. This is long. 

Harris:

Yeah. I hate to be the one to say starter relationship, but I kind of think they may have outgrown this relationship a bit. And it does sound like cuz a lot of people immediately latch on to the possibility that this person's partner is not actually gender fluid, but that gender fluid is kind of a stop on the way to acceptance.

Liz:

Which is possible but doesn't actually matter. Like, the thing is, this person says that she is good being with a gender fluid person, but she's not actually. She is okay with being with someone who occasionally dresses up fem, but she doesn't seem to actually like who her partner is when they're fem or how they dress when they're fem. Doesn't like being seen with them when they're fem. And that's a lot to be…

Rae:

I’m definitely reading a lot of transphobia.

Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. A lot of transphobia. Probably a lot of fat phobia in the way that she talks about her partner's body, right? And this idea that they're picking things that don't look good on their body. And I'm like, there's a YouTuber I follow who is a fat woman who does a lot of like, I'm wearing the things you tell fat people not to wear, and I'm going to look great in it. Here's me in my fat body, not trying to lose any weight. 

And like it sounds like this person has very particular standards for herself that she is now applying to her partner, viewing them as failing, and then deciding that that's a problem. When, like, literally nobody said you had to have those.

Harris:

It also feels like they're less of a partner, especially when dealing with their fem side and more of a project, like, doing a little bit of a dress-up doll kind of thing. And that I think may be part of the issue with the fashion choices, maybe they do look good in those outfits, but those are your outfits. These are the outfits that you are choosing for them and not necessarily the ones that they're picking. And if they're making mistakes, you know, picking out outfits that don't look good on them, that's part of the learning curve. Unfortunately, they're just doing it. 

Rae:

Maybe this person would have felt amazing until you went along and said, "You don't look good in that outfit."

Liz:

And like, what does it mean to look good in an outfit? Like, like seriously, what does that fucking mean? By whose standard? By whose eye, whose gaze are we counting when we're talking about?

Rae:

Yeah, like, as feminine as you want? Is this person flaunting their fatness in a way that makes you feel uncomfortable? There's this weird comment halfway through talking about some sort of gaudy early 2000s. 

Liz:

Yes. 

Harris:

Yeah.  

Rae:

Like, the way this person is dressing is like rubbing you the wrong way so specifically. 

Liz:

Yeah. It's it's very it's very strange. It's very respectability politics, like in the most derogatory way. And it's also this weird, like concern trolling, almost like “Well, they look trans, so it's dangerous.” But it's not just that she would be perceived as trans. It's that she is perceived as trans, overweight, and poorly dressed. And I'm like, I don't think the poorly dressed is the part that the bashers are caring about. I don't think that's their like, I don't think that if they were like, but it's a stylish outfit, we won't assault this trans person, then I don't think that's real. 

Harris:

I was wondering what the safety issue is, because if it's not, they don't know how to walk in heels. I'm not sure what they are dressing in, like too much dark clothing and going out and risking getting hit by cars, like what are the issues here that aren't just that they don't pass as well as you would like?

Rae:

This is about passing for sure. I think that maybe what the partner is trying to talk about is like “I'm worried for their safety if they're not passing,” and I don't think that they're passing if they're not looking like the current standard of femininity. I think that's what's kind of going on here. 

Liz:

Yeah. Because it is dangerous, right? To be clearly clocked as a trans person in public, particularly a trans fem, is dangerous. Even in the Castro, people get assaulted, right? Like, San Francisco is one of the gayest cities, and even in our gay neighborhood, there have been assaults on trans people. 

Rae:

And this is someone who's living kind of like part-time in this identity and switching back and forth, maybe they're not having some of the like medical affirmation techniques that are like allowing them to live as their feminine presenting self yet. So yeah, there is going to be like some element of danger for sure when they're going out. 

Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. And I like I think that when I read this, I am of two minds. One mind is my non-binary self being like, "Bitch, move on. You're hurting your partner." And the other one is like I feel so much empathy for the struggle this person is in, where like they want to go backwards, but that's not real in any relationship, right? They want things to be how they were. They want their partner back. 

They had assumptions about how their partner would grow and change over the years. And that's not what happened, and she doesn't know what to do about that. But she also hasn't recognized that, like, they are just not a fit probably right now, and that is okay, and she can move on so that her partner can find people who are a better fit. 

Rae:

That's the whole thing I was thinking when you were reading it, was just like let somebody love this person properly. Let them go so that they can have someone who's actually like going to support them and love their body and love their transition and want to be with them through all of these different iterations. 

Because it's not like you go from point A to point B. Everyone is changing throughout their whole life. But especially trans people, you're going to go through lots of different versions and try things out, and you need someone who's going to support you through all of that. 

Liz:

Yeah, and like the language of their final paragraph, like “I don't know if there's anything else for me to do but to ride it out and support them until they get to where they finally feel comfortable in their skin.” 

Harris:

I don't think it's they that are hoping their partner needs to get comfortable in this case.

Liz:

And they talk about feeling awkward and cringe looking at their partner, that the way that their partner is being and exploring their gender is putting stress on her mentally, emotionally, and sexually. And I'm like, then break up.

Rae:

Leave.

Harris:

Yeah, there are a couple of things in there that leapt out at me. Starting with the way that they used to dress in the bad-fitting jeans, t-shirt, and polo if they're fancy. Like that. There's a certain level of okay, they probably never learned how to do men's fashion in general, but also that sounds to me like someone who was aiming for the least male-coded outfit that is still male that they possibly could. 

Like they're trying to hide in their own clothing. I'm betting that those jeans were really baggy. I'm betting that the hoodies, well, they say they're from the East Bay, so yeah, hoodies all the time. Like, just all sorts of like body-hiding clothing. The way that people who are uncomfortable with their physiques for any reason, whether it's that they don't like their build, they feel like they're too fat, they feel like they're too skinny, or they feel like they're in the wrong body, tend to be. They're hiding in their clothing and probably clothing that of, you know, not only conceals the outlines of their body, but probably doesn't touch much of their skin either. 

Liz:

Well, and it says explicitly that it's the Costco clothes that their mom bought them 10 years ago, right? Like, it isn't even clothing that they bought themselves. It's clothing that somebody provided to them so that they could wear the appropriate uniform, you know? 

Harris:

Yeah. And I kind of feel like when they say, "Oh, the men's clothes look cool, but they don't want to buy them because they wouldn't be good because of their weight, but they'll go for the, as you said, the gaudy, outdated early 2000s-esque fem outfits." I don't think weight's the problem. I think the problem is they're not interested in men's fashion.

Liz:

At least right now. And like that can change, right? 

Harris:

True. 

Liz:

I think that they're excited about this. And there is a way when you start exploring gender, at least my experience was often times you swing kind of harder into the gender that you haven't had an experience of embodying before. And so you kind of go farther to the other end of the spectrum. And that may last forever. It may be something that you're trying for a while. You may swing back. Like it's very hard to say.

Rae:

I was gonna say, like, as people get access to like HRT and they don't feel like they have to be in this binary transition anymore, then they kind of get a chance to explore their gender that they were assigned at birth. You know, so this person might get more affirmed as a woman or as a fem presenting person down the road, and then be like, “Oh, I can actually wear those masc clothes, and it's fine because people see me for who I am now.” Whereas now they're not. 

Liz:

Yeah. And I think too that a lot of exploration starts in stereotypes because like that's what's easiest to latch on to, of like the stereotype is women wear dresses and jewelry and makeup…

Rae:

…and so like I'm going to start wearing what I saw like an older sibling wear, or my mom wear, or whatever. Yeah. This is my version of the style that I want to emulate. 

Liz:

Yeah. 

Harris:

And I'm betting that the “bimbo” acting that the poster mentions is part of that as well. Like they're finally getting a chance to really experiment and experience being feminine, and they're kind of going to a hard extreme because what is more immediately obviously fem than kind of like the ditsy bimbo. It may not be who they're going to ultimately settle into in their fem side or if they are indeed someone who is making a stop on the way to transition, but it's the opening steps of, “For the first time, I get a chance to experiment and play around with this, and this is the most easily accessible mannerisms that I know.” 

Liz:

I also wonder how actually genuine this is, like, I wonder because there's almost a way in which there is so much internalized misogyny underneath this post as well that I wonder how much of it is actually “bimbo” versus just like “heightened femininity.” 

Cuz “bimbo” has a particular like, stupid like somebody who's like real dumb and they don't know anything, and I don't know that that's necessarily what this person is doing. Like I'm not there. But I wonder if the poster is just reading in femininity, particularly heightened femininity, a certain amount of stupidity, because that's what misogyny tells us. 

Rae:

Yeah. Yeah, that's a good point. 

Harris:

Yeah.

Rae:

But I do think we try things on along the way, and if this is like one outfit that you get to try on and see how it feels, yeah. amazing. And yeah, this might not be where you settle for the rest of time, but it's important. 

Harris:

And there's also a certain amount of just they are young, they are in a new stage of life, and in some ways kind of going through a second puberty, almost inasmuch as they're trying to figure out who they are now that they're allowed to have this side. Because we've all known people who've had, especially, you know, in college, where they're going through phases where they're trying on new personas, and they're trying on new identities. 

So you get someone who suddenly gets really hardcore into being perceived in this particular way. Maybe they've gone like really hard into punk even if they weren't necessarily punk beforehand or they've gotten really hard into trying to be, you know, a bro jock athlete type or trying to be really hard into being, you know, maybe sority girl or maybe being more of like an athletic girl and just trying to like figure out who they are by trying on these new identities. And that may be what's going on here as well. Does this fit me? Yes or no. 

But, you know, this is just the first of many cycles that they'll go through, all right, maybe they're going to find something a little bit more like maybe they're going to settle into some like 90s hippie freak uh, kind of like all crochet going on soon. 

Rae:

I would love that. 

Liz:

So, I want to share some of the OP comments I think are also very interesting. So, someone was saying that “if they present a fem 80% of the time, they're probably still a trans fem, but it doesn't sound like you have much of a boyfriend.” And the OP responded with like, "No, they're adamant they're gender fluid, but it does suck that most days I don't believe them." 

And then somebody replied to the OP saying, "I'm scared of doing top surgery because I might lose my partner sexually. I'm definitely gender fluid, but I'm scared of fully exploring every part because of his reactions sometimes." 

And the OP responded saying, "Thank you for sharing. I'm so sorry you're going through it right now. I think my partner is going through this, too. I made it clear that if they are trans, I don't think I could continue having a romantic relationship with them. They're my best friend and I don't want to hurt them. 

Rae:

There we go. 

Harris:

That was probably not the way to phrase that at all. 

Rae:

The kernel of truth. 

Liz:

And like, I mean, I have questions about like why you would need to break up if this person is trans? If you are bisexual and you love this person, what is it about them being a trans fem that means you need to break up? 

But also, as a trans person, the reality of transition for a lot of people is that they lose their family, they lose their friends, they lose their partners, they lose most of the people in their lives. And that makes it very scary to do anything concrete about transitioning because the stakes are high. The stakes are not, “someone might be pissed at me.” The stakes are not, “it may not go exactly how I want.” 

It's my body may change in ways that I don't even like, and I will lose the people that are my anchors in this world. Reading that comment, I just really feel for the poster's partner because that is such a tough spot to be in. You know, I've had many trans clients and patients in my therapy private practice, in the settings where I've worked who had things they wanted to do for their transition that they held back on because it would impact their relationship. 

And if they lost their relationship, they would be losing a huge portion of their support system, of their identity, of the place that they live, of how they spend their time, of how they orient their finances, right? Everything would have to change. 

And so they come to this place of like, well, how little can I do and still feel okay? Like, what's the least that I can do and still feel like mostly okay, even if it's not really what I want to do. Like, where are the compromises that I can make? And that's a it's a soul sucking cycle, and it is not helpful. 

Harris:

And the more we get into the OP's replies and whatnot, the more I think they haven't really examined their own feelings about this. I can understand, like, okay, when my partner is more fem, they're not my type because my type in women is not the same as my type in men. I could understand that. 

But it's when there's one, it's there's a post by the user is deleted now. But it says, “Uh, hey, in the kindest way possible. It sounds like you don't really understand yet what it means to be trans. People can be trans fem, trans masc, and generally live the gender they’re assigned and still be totally NB or fluid. Like I know plenty of trans dudes offline who've been on T for over a decade who have had top and genital surgery but still don't relate at all to the binary label of man.”

And you know, go explains a lot about how you know the OP is, they say you're really hammering about how they should be and dress and label themselves, but I don't see you appreciating just who they are and who they're becoming.

Yeah. And it really is based on their reply, I don't think they even really read the post that like the comment they're replying to because it kind of comes back to you know, talking about the way they're dressing and acting.

Rae:

Yeah. But that's not who they are. 

Harris: 

Yeah. It's just part of their identity. It's not just the outfits. 

Rae:

If you love someone, you love someone. Like, why does it matter what clothes they're wearing? 

Liz:

Yeah. And you know, I think when I try to have sympathy for people in these positions, I try to remind myself that, like a very bisexual polyamorous slut, like nobody's gender affects my attraction to them. Like that doesn't affect me. Whereas if you are someone who is like this poster labels herself as bisexual, but I have questions because I think I I wonder if she is someone who has generally more sexual and romantic attraction to men than to other genders, which happens, right? 

Like, not every bisexual is a full 50/50. People can be towards different ends of the spectrum. But I do think that, like if I was her partner and my partner was bisexual and all of a sudden they're like, "Yeah, but when you're a woman, I don't want to fuck you." What?! It would just, it would be really deeply invalidating and challenging because it's almost like it could feel like your partner saying, "I want to fuck women, but like not you though."

Rae:

Yeah. On top of the internalized like trans misogyny which is happening here externally, there's also a lot of like internalized biphobia and homophobia that I think is coming out.

Liz:

Yes. Yes. 

Harris:

And I also kind of wonder if there isn't kind of a feeling of just like being embarrassed by what their partner looks like now as a woman. Whereas, as a, you know, when they're presenting as a man, it's a look that they can vibe with, and maybe even a look they don't feel embarrassed to be out with, like, being with this person doesn't make other people look down at me for like, why are you with them?

And if that's, you know, if that's a little voice in the back of the poster's mind going like, "Oh, if other people see me with my partner when they're in more fem presenting, what are they thinking about when they see me with this person?" And it's an unpleasant thing to have to reckon with. But if that's there, that is kind of a thing you've got to deal with. 

Rae:

Yeah. “Oh, no. Now I have to deal with the criticism and trans misogyny that my partner faces all the time, but I don't want to have to deal with it.”

Harris:

Yeah. What weird lookism are you kind of like not wanting to stare down in the face, you know? 

Liz:

Yeah. And I think that the entire need or bias for trans people to be passing is such bullshit. There's there's a a response to a comment that the OP has farther down where they're talking about like the suggestions that they give their partner for their clothing. Okay. So.

So the comment that the OP is replying to is, "I have a weirdly specific few questions. One, what sort of advice are you giving them fashion-wise? Like, what sorts of things are you suggesting they do? Two, why don't they take your advice? Do they explain why? Three, what are they wearing instead? Why do you think it doesn't work?" 

So, the response is,

“One, for example, they're realizing that their body is broad. They're overweight but evenly proportioned. One of their biggest insecurities is their stomach, as that's the widest part of their body. They love pencil skirts, and that tends to highlight that particular area. I'm of the mindset that your clothes should make you feel good. And if they highlight a part of you that you dislike, you don't have to go out feeling uncomfortable. Instead of a solid color pencil skirt, I'll recommend something with a pattern or maybe an A-line skirt that cinches the waist. 

Two, they don't want the pencil skirt with a pattern. They don't want the A-line skirt. If I ask why, a triggering question for them due to growing up with parental interrogation, or what it is they don't like, they reiterate they just don't want it. I'll say what the purpose of the pattern and a-ine fit is. It is still feminine and a great way to highlight your favorite parts of you without highlighting the parts that aren't your favorite. Still, eh, I don't want it. Fine, I hear you. Go on and wear what you like. 

Three, they again choose to wear the solid color pencil skirt, look in the mirror, talk badly about themselves because of how it highlights their flaws, go out with it anyway. Then they feel like shit the whole day, and it becomes stressful for both of us because they're self-conscious, and I can't enjoy the day without feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. If this happened occasionally, I get it. Trying on new clothes can be nerve-wracking. But then they go back to the same stuff that makes them feel bad about themselves. 

In a way, they have a very clothes-wear-me mindset. And I'm trying to inch them closer to "your clothes should fit you," not the other way around. Watching Tan on Queer Eye style people has been super helpful. And it's actually been extremely difficult for me because Tan says things that I've said to them, and it sticks when Tan says it, but not when I do. But that's a whole other issue, I think.”

Harris:

Well, yes, it's another issue, but it's an issue they're not dealing with yet. The fact that they have established the same pattern that his, or her, or their, you know, pronouns to be determined, parents apparently have of telling them what to do and not listening to them. Tan is going out there and giving some suggestions that you know this person who is not being directly dressed by Tan, can take or leave, and maybe get some inspiration from. But they don't have someone sitting there going, “Well, when Tan says you listen.” 

And it's like, the problem isn't them listening, it's the OP not listening. And not saying, “Okay, you like pencil skirts but feel like they really make your stomach bulge out or draw attention to it. Maybe we should try something like kind of a layered look. Maybe kind of like maybe some like shirts to kind of like change up the silhouette, you know? You know, get a little like layering outfit and then make maybe that'll make you feel better as opposed to no, no, try this pattern, try this A-line.” And not listening when they say, “No, I want to try this particular look.” 

Liz:

Yeah. And like the whole like, oh, they're self-conscious, so I can't enjoy the day without feeling like I'm walking on eggshells. And I'm like, girl, if you hyped up your partner instead of agreeing with them that I looked like shit, it would make a huge fucking difference. 

Rae:

I was just going to say, at any point are you going to them and being like, "This looks amazing on you. Wear the fucking skirt. You look hot." 

Liz:

And like, who fucking cares if it emphasizes their stomach? Be like, "Babe, your belly is so fucking cute. Let's do this shit. Let's go." Like, what? 

Rae:

It would be a different conversation that we're having. 

Liz:

And it just, god man, it's so bad. Later down, the OP has a comment that the gender exploration started with a sexual fetish for nylons and leg wear. And then they're like, well, maybe it's not sexual. I just like it on my legs. And then it's like maybe I want to wear makeup. So she put on some makeup, and it was a sexual thing and it was like crossdressing, and then it wasn't sexual. And I'm like…

Rae:

Just let this person play. 

Liz:

Just let this person play. 

Harris:

Let them play, but also stop like, I understand the impulse that they're going for in terms of, this would look better on you, or this would directly address your insecurity. It's like maybe address the insecurity and not like really draw attention to their body in a way that's not working. Liz, it's like what you were saying. It's like, instead of being like, "Okay, you're worried about having like a beer belly, so let's put this on." Just say, "You're, you know, I love your stomach. I love your tummy. You look like how hugs feel." 

And maybe pay attention to the, you know, the way that society, you know, shames women. And a person who is trying very hard to be a woman or at least feel feminine, like they got caught up in the same shit. So maybe focus on that a little bit, you know, focus on helping them less with the fashion and more on loving their body. 

And like I understand the frustration of like telling someone, "No, your body is great. I love your body." And then they don't hear it or not taking it on board. Who among us hasn't had that conversation or hasn't been the one asking for that reassurance over and over again? 

Rae:

You're going to be hearing that messaging everywhere telling you that your body is not the right shape, that it's not feminine to look this way, whatever. That should never come from your partner. They should be there championing you the whole way. 

Harris:

Yeah. Like just being like, "Okay, so if this is bothering you, let's figure out how we could make this work. What are some ways you could get this look but like feel better about yourself, and then not have to like cobble together something that they may not necessarily have had the skill to put together.

So they could have a similar look that, if put together with more care, more thought, and more attention, would look good as opposed to what sounds like, and maybe I'm being a little judgmental here, the you know the poster throwing their hands up and saying, “Fine, whatever, do what you want,” and then not providing any more style advice. 

Liz:

Yeah. Right. Well, and like it doesn't sound like your partner wants your style advice. Right. It sounds like your partner has given you pretty clear messages that they don't want your style advice, right? Or that the way you're giving it to them is not helpful. And I can get that, like you don't like what they're doing with their style. But if you say you love this person, amp them up anyway. Like, why the fuck do you get to determine what the right style is for their body? I don't know. 

Harris:

I wonder if it wouldn't go better if they went and talked with someone like a fashion consultant. Like if I think they're still living in the East Bay area so maybe they can find a place where they can go and have like you know the way that like Nordstrom and other department stores will have a personal shopper set up a consult have someone basically walk them through; all right, what are your goals, what are things you want to dress like, what are the body parts you want to emphasize, body parts you want to conceal, and then have a whole like array of out outfits brought by that they can try on put mix and match basically the way that Tan does it on Queer Eye. 

And then by having a third party do this, not the poster, maybe they would be able to have a conversation about what works, what doesn't, and why, without feeling like that very strong sense of judgment that I'm getting from the text. So it must be coming out real goddamn hard from them in person. 

Rae:

Even more so than bringing them into like cis straight spaces for that. I think bringing them into trans spaces and get them to see other people who have gone through similar processes, seeing them loving their bodies, which society is saying like this is not how a trans person should look, this is not how a woman should look. And talk to them about what that experience was like. You know, there are a lot of people who've gone through this, and it doesn't sound like they have their community. 

Liz:

Yeah. I think that there is this way in which the poster is playing out all of her own, like internalized misogyny ideas about how she should look with her partner. And she mentions in one of the posts that like they actually have very similar body shapes, and that's part of why like she knows how they should dress. And I'm like, "Girl, you don't. You don't. You don't." Cuz there's not one answer. 

Rae:

Are you just reflecting your own insecurities onto your part? 

Harris:

Yeah. And that's even before we get into the fact that they're not attracted to them and have said so when they're like when they're being more feminine. Like that's also got to put a hell of a whammy on them. There's nothing like hearing, oh, you know, when you're a side of yourself that you're very clearly excited to be, you know, finally experimenting with, experiencing, learning about, I don't like you as much. And if you turn out you are in fact trans, then this relationship is over. 

It's like, okay, so you, you know, you're trying to be supportive, but you just broke one of their knees in the process of doing this. 

Rae:

How much pressure are they putting on themselves to be in this relationship? 

Harris:

And so, yeah, now they feel like, okay, my partner's trying to dress me up, but they're trying to dress me up because they don't like me now. And that may not be what they're trying to what the OP is trying to convey, but it's it it sounds like that may be what their partner is hearing.

Liz: 

Well, and especially because it comes along with like, we don't get to be full partners when I dress like this. We’re besties and not equal footing besties. Bestie one, who knows what bestie two should be doing with their clothing all the time, and gets upset when the bestie doesn't listen. Like you're trying to explore who you are. You're being told you're doing it wrong, and you don't get to have sex with your partner if you explore it.

Harris:

There's no easy way to say that, like, I'm glad that you're discovering your truth. I'm thrilled for you to like be understanding of who you are, and I want all the best for you. But this is hard for me and difficult to adjust to. That's not an easy thing to say. It's definitely not an easy thing to hear and probably not a thing that needs to be said early on in the transition, regardless of where it's going to ultimately end up. 

But there are a lot easier and better ways to have covered it and not just made them feel like, “you're allowed to be this flavor of queer but not so queer.” You know, you can go this far but no further. And when you even when you go this far, then our relationship is temporarily on pause. 

And especially even if that's not what they're intended, that's how it's coming across.

Liz:

You don’t have a partner 80% of the time. 80% of the time, your partner is not your partner. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? I don't know. I wouldn't do that. 

Rae:

I wonder where they are now? When was this posted? And can we get an update? Are they still together?

Liz:

Great question. It looks like it was three years ago. So, who knows? 

Harris:

I do kind of wonder, though, like the 80% of the time that could just as easily be the excitement of the new, if they were just a little chill about it, and this person is just gender fluid. No, not just, but is gender fluid, then it might balance out a bit more and then things would be a little bit different.

But if they've assumed that now this is going to be, oh, it's going to be 80/20 for the rest of time, and they're having a sad, but they're making it everybody else's problem, that's also going to throw things off. Like, maybe they just needed some time to acclimate. 

Liz:

So I went to the poster's profile, and as of a year ago they're still together. 

Rae:

Okay. Interesting. 

Harris:

Good for them. 

Rae:

No photos of what they're wearing. 

Liz:

No, because it's the post that I saw that says that they're still together, which is in a subreddit called “as one after infidelity.” And the start of the post is, “I've been lurking in this sub for a while. Made a few posts here and there over the years. I betrayed my partner, and my wayward partner have been dating since 2015, and D-Day happened in 2017. We were so young, so insecure, and so very poorly emotionally adjusted at 21 years old. It would have been easier for both of us to let go and start over with someone new, but turns out they're still together.”

Harris:

Yeah, and the post right above that one in their profile is, "My partner is trans. My partner cheated on me early in our relationship, and then a few years later, in the process of healing from that they came out as well. 

Rae:

It's like the plot thickens. 

Harris:

Yeah. This got, “We're out eight years from our D-Day, and our love is stronger than ever, but sex is very hard.” It's like oh boy. 

Liz:

I don't know. I'm too impatient. Too impatient to put up with years and years of not fucking my partner. I don't know that that's this is why I can't date asexual people. They're fantastic people. I can be good friends with them, but I need fucking. That's my thing. 

Rae:

It just sounds like they're not clearly communicating about what their needs are. Maybe they don't know what their needs are. Maybe they haven't had any other relationships to compare this to. Maybe they don't think that they can find anyone else after this. That's a huge thing when trans people come out. They think, "I'm never going to find another person to love me, so I have to stay." 

Harris:

Yep. I do wonder if, like, and I guess unless their partner ever posted somewhere, then, you know, do they have community yet? Have they, you know, it does sound like they've fully come out because they're posting in “my partner is trans.” But has their partner found other trans people to hang with or other gender queer or gender fluid people to hang with? 

Do they have other people who can kind of be, you know, their queer uncles and aunts and non-binary non-parents to kind of like coach them through and say, "Oh, yeah, I remember when I was young and newly out and struggling with this," or, "I remember when I was young and then excited about everything because it was all new." I do kind of wonder if maybe that, you know, one way or another, this person is still feeling kind of isolated and with their partner because they don't see another option? 

Rae:

Look, there's no replacement for having mentorship at that stage, seeing other trans people thriving, as much as cis people can tell you that they love and accept you, it doesn't hit the same. 

Liz:

It doesn't. Yeah. And I think you also need the trans people around you to be like, "No, you can go farther. Who gives a fuck?" Like the people who are going to be like, "No, do the thing. Who cares?" Fuck all their expectations. 

Harris:

You like pencil skirts. Here, let me show you all these different pencil skirts. Let me show you all of these different cuts of pencil skirts. Let's play around with these. Let's put you up in some office wear. Let's see how that looks. Let's make you a sexy secretary. 

Liz:

You mean sexy CEO. 

Harris:

No, sexy secretary, because then you can play with power exchange. 

Liz:

CEOs can also play with power exchange. Anyway. All right, let's move on to our second post.  Harris, you want to read this one?

Answering Reddit's Trans Relationship Questions. Question 2: Why Are Androgynous Clothes Always so Boring?

Harris:

Sure. And it's in the non-binary talk subreddit.

"Whenever I look up androgynous clothing, the options are always so plain, formal, black, gray and brown. Why can't androgynous fashion be casual and colorful? I like to play with patterns and colors, with gender neutral clothing it seems impossible.

With female or male style clothes there's the problem that I either don't want to highlight my body shape or that it doesn't fit me. I don't want to resort to my agab's clothes, but the other one is not really an option right now. But every "androgynous" clothing I've seen were so boring. No colors, no patterns. Why can't we have fun? Being androgynous doesn't mean that everything should be neutral."

Liz:

So, I just want to start by doing my rant on androgynous because the standard most of us hold for androgyny in our brains can only really be achieved by thin white people. And also non-binary people don't need to go to androgyny. 

Rae: 

I was going to say the same thing. And also that it's very masculine.

Harris:

Yep. Mhm. 

Rae:

By the male gaze. Let's be more specific. 

Liz:

Right. It's like it's like it's a vest and it's like baggyish pants in a soft fabric that are beige and it's androgynous because that person might have boobs. 

Rae:

Well, neutral is neutral, right? Neutral is still the majority that's accepted by a maledominated culture and it's very scary for men to think of wearing something that would make them be seen as feminine and that's more dangerous than a woman dressing in men's clothing or wearing something unisex that makes her look like a man or going the other direction. Right? So things have to be neutral to the side of masculine to protect the fragility or else the whole thing would fall. 

Liz:

And a lot of it's also like super baggy, like a big baggy t-shirt and then a big baggy pants. And I'm like, what's I don't understand. What's the point? What's the point?

Harris:

To dress like you're from a hip-hop band from the '90s? 

Liz:

You could have so much more color and fun. Like this is not, there's no fun allowed in androgynous clothing. 

Harris:

There's barely any fun allowed in men's clothing, let's be real. And they are taking their cues from men's clothing.

Rae:

Yes, and that is why it's going that way in the colors for sure. 

Harris:

Yeah. Like if you look at men's formal wear, we've got suits and we've got tuxedos and we've got suits and we've got tuxedos.

Rae: 

And a neutral and color palette. 

Harris: 

Yeah. And it's just one of those times of like where the heck is like now I'm blanking on the man's name. He was he designed he was basically the reason for like suits becoming a thing and his name, I'm blanking on his name right now. Beau Brummell. There we go.

Like you're like you can get experimental with it. Like one of the things I've always liked about seeing some folks like Billy Porter or some other folks who will like go to events in just all sorts of just crazy ass outfits. Some of them full-on dresses, some of them just all sorts of like just wild stuff.

Rae:

So this is an interesting thing. You're talking about like the intersection of like blackness and men's fashion. When we look at things like Zoot suits and dandism, I think the Met Gala was like themed that way last year. I think we saw a lot more style. We saw a lot more color, a lot more prints. Like it's it's specifically like white patriarchy that we're talking about. 

Harris:

Yeah. Like there was a there was a guy who I believe is Sikh who came in, just like Jacquard print silks. They were all had some shine to them. His turban was just like like just done up, had a big brooch with a feather on it, and the dude looked like a prince. And it's just like why aren't more people dressing like this?

Rae:

Because it’s “gay.” That’s why. 

Harris:

Well, that's the thing. It's like it was for for being all colorful, for being very form fitting. It was also very like straight masculine. 

Liz:

No, I know. gorgeous. The cut's absolutely straight, masculine, but particularly white masculinity is designed to be about excluding as much as possible because the idea is to push as many people out of the man box as you can. And so you have to make those confines real small and tight. And that's going to be about colors, it's going to be about prints, it's going to be about cuts, it's going to be about fabrics, right? Because that's the ways that you can kick people out of the manbox. 

Rae:

Yeah, it's really strict. 

Harris:

There's also there is also a class issue with it too because it's always been fashion has almost always been a reaction to what the upper class are wearing and the upper class inevitably sets the tone and especially with the rise of, you know, the tech millionaire and the tech billionaire and quiet luxury and has has become a thing where it is now not even you don't even see people getting dressed up in interesting outfits.

It's slouchy jeans and hoodies and and tennis shoes. And it the only difference is that hoodie cost $80,000 and was made from like hair from rabbits that were bred to exist in 120° heat. So, you know, only five people could wear it, 

Rae:

Like yes and no though. Rae brought up Zoot suits. Zoot suits were not from the rich. And in fact, Zoot suits were a tool of the poor to show off what little wealth they had because fabric was expensive. And so making a larger suit that required more fabric was about showing that you had enough money to put into that. But it was not a fashion choice of the rich. It was something that came very much from black people, from the lower classes, from the working class.

Similarly, if we look at grunge when it got really big when I was young, right? Grunge was not something that the elites were pushing. It was something that came up through a grassroots effort of people within certain subcommunities. A lot of fashion can follow from the top. But there is also a bidirectional conversation wherein the people who are the artists, the people who are enjoying certain kinds of music, certain subcultures, certain scenes create their own language of fashion that they then pass upwards as well.

Harris:

There's you actually make a very good point. There is someone on he's on blue sky and Twitter. His name is Derek Guy. He posts under “die work wear” and talks a lot about the language of fashion and the language and the way that, like the language of a subculture, defines fashion.

And it's interesting, especially because, like, stuff like the Zoot suits were banned. They were actually made illegal because of you know, sanctuary laws of the 20th century but really because Filipino men, African-American men, and Latinos were wearing them and they were being associated with like gangs and whatnot as opposed to liberation. 

So like it's there and the same thing with the punk scene, with you know the mohawks and the standard piercings and the way that that you know freaked out the normies and you "suddenly can't wear...” makes those as well. So it's interesting, and you made a good point I really wish “die work wear” you know Derek Guy, I really wish he'd write a book because the history of all of this and the semiotics of it are just fascinating. 

Liz:

Yeah, he's one of my favorite people about fashion to follow on the internet because he does do such interesting examinations of like the the language of clothing and where it comes from and how that informs what you do and why certain things look weird together or look off versus look good. Really cool stuff that he talks about, generally all like traditionally masculine fashion. He doesn't talk a lot about women's wear, but really really cool stuff. 

But coming back to androgyny. So, androgynous clothes. I fucking hate the idea of androgynous clothes because androgyny is so poorly defined. And also, like, what are we talking about with androgynous clothing, right? One of my favorite places to get shirts from, button-down shirts, is called Gender-Free World. And they do button-down shirts in like short sleeves or long sleeves in really fun patterns. And their sizing is done by body shape and size. 

So, you take measurements of your chest, your waist, and your hips. And based on those ratios, you pick one of their families of size. And then your measurements tell you which size under that you do. And so, it's all cut to fit your specific body shape in a way that will look vaguely the same, but even then, it's a button-down shirt. It's designed to look relatively masc, right? Like, it is not. The patterns are pushing the edges of what gender is a little bit. But is it really gender free clothing when all it is are button-down shirts? 

Rae:

Yeah, it’s still really in a box. 

Liz:

You look at like, Dapper Boi, which does some really interesting, masculine clothes for people with AFAB bodies or curvier bodies. Some of that stuff is very cool. It is also again pushing you back into the binary.

And I feel like it's a challenge because I want every place to do their sizing the way the gender-free world does, but to offer all the different kinds of garments. I want dresses that are sized in that fashion. I want suits that are sized that way. I want everything to come under that family of sizing because it's so much more accurate in terms of getting a garment that will fit you off the rack. But like, why is it only fucking button-down shirt? 

Rae:

Well, as someone who does custom sizing for a living, it's wild to me when you see the way that things are split up on a website in terms of men's and women's clothing, and then you go through and you're like, "This is a fucking hoodie." Like, how is this in a men's or women's section? That makes no sense. 

Like, what are we actually talking about when we talk about binary? Is this meant for breasts? Is this meant for a penis? Are there specific things about the clothing that are specific to the anatomy of the person? And that doesn't mean the identity of the person. Let's really talk about how the cuts are being built. 

Like you're saying, there are these different shapes of the body, sure, but that's not necessarily saying that this is like a woman's cut of a men's shirt. It's just a shirt. And there's no reason to split it down the middle. It never made sense to me. 

Liz:

No. Like, so like the hoodie I'm wearing right now is from Pop Flex, and I love it because it's got these huge blousy sleeves and like an enormous hood and it's so much fun, and it's "made for women," right?

But one of my sweeties out here saw me wearing it and was like, "That's the most amazing hoodie I've ever seen." So, he tried it on, and when they had a sale, he bought some for himself because, like who the fuck cares? What's it going to do? Make him look like he has a smaller waist? Who gives a shit? 

Like, again, I wanted to talk about this is a hoodie that's designed for an hourglassy shape. So, it has like decreasing in the waist and then back out to the hips. This is a hoodie that's designed straight up and down. This is a hoodie that's designed so it flares outward. This is a design so it like crops and comes in. Right? Talk about the shaping of the garment. And then people can determine how that fits with their body. It doesn't have to be like this is the man, this is the woman. 

Rae:

Even when we're talking in the binary about like cis people's bodies, like on a cis woman's body, you're never going to have the same proportions. You're never going to have the same heights. You can't even say that there's a standardized woman's body. Even when we take the transness out of it, you know, and all of the great stuff that happens in the middle. 

Liz:

Yeah. And I think that, like there especially in cis women's bodies, there is so much variance because of the boob to waist to hip, there can be so much difference there based on how someone's body naturally shapes itself. And so something that is a woman's cut could fit me great and be horrendous on my best friend cuz she's straight up and down and I'm more hourglassy, right? And like that, we both have what they would consider women bodies, but that doesn't mean anything for the fit of this garment. 

Rae:

It literally is made up. It does not mean anything. 

Harris:

Yeah. At least with jeans, they kind of start getting into it if they don't say men's or women's, they kind of just get into the description of all right, boot cut, athletic cut, tapered cut, and those have like particular meanings. So like athletic cut, fuller in the thighs, more room in the seat, you know, where is it going to sit on? Is it going to sit on your natural waist, or is it going to sit around your hips? Like this is useful. 

Liz:

Caveat, I got a big butt, and I cannot lie, and jeans never fit my fucking waist because once they get over my ass, they are just fucking enormous, right? And so like even then, telling me about the cut of the legs of a pair of pants tells me nothing about whether it will fit my body. 

Rae:

Yeah. And the sizing system is super different. Even if you’re looking at shirts.

Harris:

So, even if you're looking at the opposite problem, I’m a barrel-chested, broad-shouldered, and if I want to find a shirt that fits across my chest that I don't look like I'm about to hulk out of, then it tends to hang on me like it's a circus tent the rest of the way down.

Or if I find one that is more fitted or clings to me a little bit more, now I look like I'm trying to be one of those bros who, like the guy who looks like he breathes too hard, both his pants and his shirt are going to come popping right off. And you know then with a bunch of guys around it saying, “You know, men, what's stopping you from dressing like this?” it's like, “Well because I like clothes that fit.” 

Liz:

And again, like if we had a variety of shapes of garments rather than man or woman, right there would be shirts that are designed for a larger chest, smaller waist, right? There would be so many more options, and like it's unfortunate that right now the main answer is like go to a tailor. Like all the jeans that I have that I currently wear, I took them to a tailor. It cost 25 bucks a pair to get them to take in the waist. But it was worth it because now they fit me.

Rae:

But I think that's what they tried to do with unisex was kind of like the lowest common denominator. So if it's big and boxy and it's oversized and loose, then sure, it can fit everyone, but that doesn't mean it's going to look good on everyone. And people don't want something that is just bland and oversized and has no shape to it. 

Liz:

It’s sad. It's so fucking sad. It's like, “We gave you a drawstring at the waist, so whether you have a big waist or a small waist, it'll fit you.” And I'm like, “That doesn't mean it's okay.” 

Harris:

And it's also kind of telling that it's allowed for women to have a wider variety of styles of clothing. Whereas with men, if you're going to wear anything that isn't trousers or, you know, some form of pants, you got kilts. And you got kilts. And you've also got kilts. And oh, we've got utila-kilts. In case you really feel weird about wearing a kilt and need to make sure that everybody knows that no, no, no, this isn't a skirt. This is a kilt. Look, you can stick how many cans of Guinness into it. That's how you know it's a utility kilt. 

Liz:

Right, which has a pro and a con. Like, as a non-binary AFaB person, it's damn near impossible to get people to see me as not a woman cuz like they just are like, "Oh, you're just a woman doing it badly. It's fine." Whereas, like if you're an AMaB person and you put on a skirt, people are more likely to be like, "Are you doing a gender? Is there a gender happening?" And like, I envy that ease in so many ways.

Harris:

But also like every time I have had friends who have gone out, like wearing a utila-kilt or like you know, because you don't want to wear a formal kilt when you're going out to the clubs. Good lord, do people love seeing them in those kilts. They like go like they get mobbed and it's, you know, a lot of guys could take some lessons from the, "Oh, look at a dude in a dress." Yeah. Well, that dude in a dress has got a whole bunch of people trying to run their hands up and see what he ain't wearing under that kilt. So, you know, maybe get on his level. 

Liz:

That's also gross. 

Harris:

Yeah, but in this case, it was someone who really wanted that attention. So, it's the attention they wanted, and they were happy with it. But you do make a good point.

Rae:

But this is a really great example of how masculinity is the default because a man in a kilt is being seen as outside of the norm, but an AFaB person or a woman wearing a suit or pants is never going to be seen as crossdressing in the same way. 

Liz:

Yeah. 

Harris:

Or at least not anymore. I do remember there was a point where drag kings were being really harshly regulated. There was a book I read, it was fiction that was set in the 1920s in San Francisco, and was talking about the drag laws and how many like garments that women had to wear in order to still not be crossdressing. 

Liz:

Yeah. It's three items. You could have three items. 

Yeah. And it's, you know, there were a lot of, it's tough when we look at history because a lot of people that we label as like male impersonators or drag queens or drag queens were trans people, right? Who at the time we did not have that language or they did not have the kinds of options that we have now. 

But I think also that you know pants became normal by like World War II, and ever since that, even then I think that it has been more challenging to get viewed as a person doing gender than just a woman doing it badly. I feel like, again the man box is small and confining. It's very easy to be like, "Oh, you're not in the box." Whereas, like if you're not in the box, you're just kind of a woman or maybe doing it badly. And it's hard to figure out how to get anyone to read it as you doing gender. 

Rae:

Yeah. Doing something differently. 

Harris:

Yeah. And it's also frustrating from the other side because the man box is so small and restrictive that we don't have room to experiment or play around or find something that we might like. Whereas you know with the full understanding that this comes with a whole lot of stuff that you know is not fun for women have more freedom to be able to explore with their expression. 

Rae:

Oh, for sure. 

Harris:

Whether they want to, whether they're doing a gender, or whether they just decide they want to wear pants one day and a dress another. 

Rae:

Yeah. There's a level of flexibility.

Harris:

Yeah, a level of flexibility and freedom that men are not allowed to have, and in both cases, gets violently corrected, almost always by but not exclusively by other men. 

Rae:

You see a man wearing funky socks, and it's like "oh my god, what is he doing?" 

Harris:

And a whole lot of comments like, “Sir your tie is not a substitute for a personality.”

Liz:

Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is when we talk about like, “Not allowed, men are not allowed.” They can. There are just penalties. And I think what I would love is more men risking those penalties as cis men. 

You know, I look at like Iggy Pop, right, who does not necessarily identify as non-binary, but loved wearing dresses and would tell people to fuck off if they told him anything about it, right? Like I want more people who are cis men, particularly cis het men, who are willing to push these boundaries, to help kind of like work at shattering that man box. And I get that it's dangerous and that's hard for a lot of people, but like some of us are in danger all the time.

Rae:

Yeah. They need to be the ones having the conversation so that becomes safer for us. 

Harris:

Yeah. And it's fascinating watching how much even what is allowed within the man box has changed. If you look at movies from the 70s, you see a lot of dudes in crop tops and booty shorts. 

Liz:

Oh my god. Bring back crop tops and booty shorts for cis men. Bring them back. I want them. I've got my slutty tank top on right now. It's got those low cuts.

Harris:

Yeah. Like, uh, everybody wants them. Like in Richard Linklater's movies. There's a whole lot of that in there. And it's just looking at that going like, "Wow, that the past is truly a different country." 

Rae:

Yeah. We swung back the other way hard. 

Liz:

So hard. Yeah. And it's, you know, I try to take some solace in the fact that, like, part of this swing right now is fascism. And when it inevitably fails, as it always does, there will be a swing the other direction. But, boy, does it fucking suck right now. 

Harris:

Yeah. I do kind of wonder, especially with the way that the Iran war is going, usually whenever there's heavy military buildup and activity, fashion tends to start taking a lot of cues from the military. 

Like in the late 90s and early zeros, suddenly we're seeing like especially in men's fashion, a lot of shirts that had like epaulettes and like had button-down pockets on the front, like a pocket with like, you know, the strap button on the front to look more like military dress uniforms.

And I kind of wonder with the way that the like the you know the military adventurism that we've all been involuntarily subjected to, I wonder if that's going to have an opposite effect of like not wanting to associate ourselves, either with you know the fascist look that ICE and a lot of the police are starting to adopt, or if it's going to go even harder. If we're going to start seeing people dressing like, we're going to start seeing camo come back as more than just right-wing signifiers.

Liz:

I mean, I think that I would expect that to be a much more atomized fashion discussion because there is so much extreme political division. I think that which side you fall on would influence which of those fashion choices you'd feel more drawn to, right? Like the people who are very much behind the shitty ass fucking wars we're starting and the shitty ass fascism are absolutely going to continue leaning into those traditional aesthetics and looks and things that go along with that story.

I would hope that those of us on the other side are going to continue leaning into freaky shit and just get even weirder. I think that what concerns me about it right now is that people are so scared, especially on the more radical side, and I think we see that to some extent in fashion and the mainstream fashion trends as well are in a real shitty place. 

Like, low-rise jeans are back and that is one of the worst fucking things that could be, like in terms of markers of where societal fat phobia is. Skinny jeans are actually a horrific sign because skinny jeans tend to become like the low-rise jeans tend to become very popular during times when there's a lot of encouragement of disordered eating and eating disorders, when there's a lot of encouragement of very, very extreme thinness. 

And I see like even here in the Bay Area, a bunch of folks in outfits that would have been popular when I was a junior in high school, and I'm like, “Oh y'all no don't.” And then there's tons of people buying GLP1s online that are like not the officially approved medications. They're just compounded who knows what. Oh, it's so bad. It's a bad time. 

Rae:

Yeah. And you see, as well, like in times of authoritarianism, you see the bounds of what becomes societally okay, and especially in terms of fashion just really get pulled in. So then there's a lot more like strictness around what is “okay” fashion because it's so easy to kind of like, demonize, like a radical left or like whatever the kind of counterculture is, and flag that by the types of things that they're wearing in opposition to whatever, like that main fashion culture is.

Harris:

Yeah. I just kind of just keep thinking it's 2026. Where my cyber punk at? 

Rae:

I know! Way sexier!

Liz:

Okay, here's the thing. In the late 90’s and early 00’s as I was in the rave scene, it was so hardcore cyberpunk, and I want that fucking back. That shit was fucking amazing. 

Harris:

Like, watch Johnny Mnemonic. That shit was awesome. You had it all over the place. You had people wearing skinny suits and you had people wearing stuff that looks like it came out of like cyberpunk 2077. Like where are my Blade Runner outfits, you know? 

Rae:

I know, we thought it would be so Blade Runner, and it's just so..

Liz:

Fifth Element. I want some Fifth Element. Bring some Fifth Element shit up in here. The Fifth Element was glorious for fashion inspiration because gender was all over the place. Everybody was doing gender. 

Rae:

That's true. Wow. Yeah, the play with gender in that one was so good. 

Liz:

Uh, like Ruby Rod in those skintight fucking suits with the giant collars and like amazing. 

Harris:

A movie that single-handedly predicted podcasting. It's horrifying. 

Liz:

So real though. So real.

Rae:

It's true. Oh man. 

Harris:

It's like podcasting and live streaming. It's like, oh god. Oh no. This was patient zero. 

Liz:

Why did we end up with Joe Rogan instead of Ruby Rod, right? Like, come on now. 

Harris:

Because everybody looked at that, and they all wanted to be Bruce Willis in that…

Liz:

No! Who wants to be Bruce Willis in that fucking role? He's like a sack of potatoes that speaks a couple of times. That's it.

Harris:

True. 

Liz:

Okay. Anything else on androgyny, androgynous clothes? One of the comments here does bring up something, which is that like, mainstream mass market androgynous clothes are boring because it's for any gender and men won't wear things that are interesting. 

And then the interesting stuff for non-binary people is expensive because it's made by a small producer who can't do the kinds of sweatshop labor and mass purchasing of fabrics. That's not how they put it. 

But that's like that's the truth though, right? Like, you can buy cheap shit on Shein because they have slave labor, and they're using very, very cheap fabric. You can't get cheap stuff from Dapper Boy because everything is done in small batches, and they use higher-quality fabrics and pay people. Or like Origami Customs, right? You pay people a living wage. That's going to be more expensive because if you're getting something for cheap, and it's based on exploitation. 

Rae:

Yeah. The people who want to buy into that are the people who are historically underemployed and are losing positions probably because of like, you know the fact that they're trans or like things like this, and it sucks. Like we see so many people wanting to buy ethically and then being able to do so less than they ever could.

Harris:

Yeah, and a lot of times when people say they want to buy ethically and they have the opportunity to, they don't. Going back to Derek Guy, he pointed out, like a lot of people saying like, "I would rather buy American than buy, you know, sweat shop labor overseas." And then he pointed out just like,"No, you don't." Because people like these were the companies that were doing that and they went out of business and got bought out by companies that are employing sweatshop labor in Bangladesh. 

Rae:

Yeah. I mean, people just have other financial priorities right now. Understandably.  

Liz:

And I think it's tough too because it can be hard to find those more ethical clothing brands if you don't know how to find them or if they aren't coming across your social media feed. You know?

Rae:

We really struggle with censorship, me and I'm sure the other small brands that are out there. It's extremely hard for us to do things like advertise on Google. We are banned from advertising on Google, and I'm sure that there are a lot of other people like us where we just can't get the message out in the same way. 

Liz:

I tried to pull your website out the other day when I was at work and I was building Wi-Fi and I work for Kaiser, and it was like, “you can't access that, it's lingerie.” And I was like, “Is it?” I mean like it wasn't I wasn't on a work device. I was on my personal cell phone that happened to be on their Kaiser guest Wi-Fi and they're like no you can't look anyway. And I'm like, “I mean technically I guess you're correct but that's not what this is.” 

Harris:

And yet, I am willing to bet you could get on to Mac Weldon no problem.

Rae:

Not to mention the fact that there are so many lingerie stores like mass-marketed Victoria's Secret style stores that are advertising everywhere across the internet. You know, you can buy Viagra off an ad on Instagram. But, you know, fully clothed trans models are getting banned. Our ads get pulled and flagged for sexuality. Time and time again. 

Harris:

And full-figured models as well. Fat fat people dressed up in anything that isn't like…

Rae:

100% 

Harris:

...like sweatsuits, get flagged as being overtly sexual as well. 

Liz:

Yeah, it's you know I've been doing this for a long time. I've been doing sex ed for over a decade now and I have never tried to buy ads and I have people all the time who are like, "Oh, you should try buying ads on blah blah blah." I'm like, "Here's the thing. My website talks about sex. They're never going to let me have ads."

Like, I knew someone through the sex ad sphere who had written a book that was not about sex had a separate website for that book, but something on the website linked back to their main website where they talked about like, anal sex stuff. They couldn't buy ads for their book that was on this separate site because you can still link it back to this dirty dirty sex site. And like, it's so stupid. It's just all so stupid. It's so stupid. 

Rae:

It's hard right now. It's hard for a small business to survive. And this is definitely a part of it. People just can't find us even if they want to. 

Liz:

Yeah. 

Harris:

Yeah. And there's also, it's not even necessarily the platforms that are doing it, but the payment processors. There has been in the gaming space a lot of human cry over games getting delisted from Steam because Visa and Mastercard said, "We don't want to process the payment for these games." 

And because these games were either dealing with trans issues or issues around sexuality, not porn, but sexuality, they didn't get as much pushback as they could have because people didn't necessarily want to be seen as defending porn. And now horror games are getting hit, too.

Doyoki literature panic is having the same literature club is having the same issue, for you know depictions of sensitive topics because the higherups at Visa decided they didn't want to you know their pro their card being paying for them and they don't like it when people call them up and say so you don't like violence you don't like sensitive topics you don't like rape why are you letting me subscribe to HBO so I can watch Game of Thrones? 

Rae:

Right. 

Liz:

And I think that that's part of it, but for advertising at least, I don't think that that's what it is. Because everyone I know who has not been able to get advertising through, like Google or Facebook or any of those things, has had websites that payment processors don't have an issue with, right? Like they haven't been the people who have had to get independent payment processing support. They've been regular folks who the advertisers are like, "I don't know." And I just, maybe not all of the internet needs to be okay for kids. Maybe we can have stuff for adults. I don't know. radical ideas. 

Rae:

Or we could just not automatically sexualize clothing and trans bodies. 

Liz:

Yes. Yeah. Great. 

Harris:

And I've had the same issue. I had Google ads on my site and on my YouTube channel, and then one day it was just nope, they're all gone. Why? Because I talk about sex. 

Rae:

Yeah. 

Liz:

Yep. 

Rae:

We didn't even get told why we couldn't advertise on Google. One day 40% of our website traffic dropped, and we never got any reason why. Overnight.

Harris:

And the same thing with Facebook. They'll take your money, and then they'll just not run your ad and then tell you the ad was banned, but also not give you your money back, right? 

Rae:

Of course. 

Liz:

It's a rough time. And so, I'm so glad you were here. It was so great talking with you. If anybody needs binders or gaffs, please check out Origami Customs. Where can they find you? 

Thanks For Being Here

Rae:

Origamicustoms.com. And we're also very findable on social media. It's all under @OrigamiCustoms. We do a fun little YouTube where we explain all this kind of stuff in depth and Instagram is a great place to find us as well. Talking about all the kind of behind the scenes stuff like this.

Liz:

Awesome. Harris, where can people find you? 

Harris:

All right, I'll go first then. You can find me at DrNerdLove.com, and if you have questions about, you know, your love life, about, you know, wanting to find a partner, make your relationship work better, you can submit a question at drnerdlove.com/contact. I've also got my bookstore up and running finally. So, if you want to buy books directly from me, you can go to doctornerdlove.com/downloads  and find them there. 

And also, I'm on all the socials as @DrNerdLove, mostly on Bluesky. You can find me on Instagram. You can find me, you know, I'm automated posting on Twitter, so no one takes my name. And you, Dr. Liz, where can we find you? 

Liz:

My website is DrLizPowell.com. It's Dr. Liz Powell. If you want a shirt like my cute solo polyam shirt, I have merch on my store. It's drlizpowell.com/shop. I have a Patreon, patreon.com/drliz . And I'm on all the social media as @DrLizPowell. Mostly on Bluesky. I post a lot on Instagram, but that's a lie because it's my assistant posting for me. So if you do send me stuff there, I will eventually get to it. It's just that my assistant is on there a lot more than I am.

Rae:

Nice.

Liz:

Which shout out to Ally. We love you so much. You're the best. Ally is what makes this podcast possible. 

Harris:

Ally is our producer. 

Liz:

She does all the graphics. She does the copy so that it can go out. She does the show notes. Everything. She's amazing. We love you, Ally. 

Rae:

Awesome.

Harris:

And this was an amazing conversation. Rae, thank you so much for being on. 

Rae:

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Harris:

I know for a fact that I learned a lot of things that I had not thought of or like, got such a valuable perspective on. So I really appreciate that. 

Rae:

I hope there's other people out there too who are learning about this stuff for the first time. And I'm always around if people have questions, you know, I could deep dive on this stuff for days. 

Liz:

So amazing. Thank you so much. It was great having you here. 

Rae:

Thanks for having me.

Harris:

And so I think we're just going to call it there and leave with our traditional sign-off. “Do as we say, not as we did.” 

Liz:

As they did! Not as they did, Harris. Not as THEY did. 

Harris:

I am a professional. 

Liz:

WE WERE RIGHT. What's wrong with you? 

Rae:

Oh, the discussion for that could just take hours. That's true. I think it really started when I was a young man…/ cuts off.