Mutual Aid and Resistance in Minneapolis: An Interview with Underdare, our Community Partner

Transcript for our interview with Marcy Darling of Underdare

Rae: Hi everyone, this is Rae from Origami Customs. I'm here with Marcy from Underdare, which is one of our community partners down in Minneapolis, Minnesota. We wanted to have a conversation today about our work together and what they're doing down there because it's a really amazing program, and also something that we really want to be in collaboration with and be uplifting. 

Marcy and I were just chatting before this about how important it is for other trans businesses to really uplift each other right now because everyone is really struggling and, of course, where you are in the shitstorm of the political movement that's been going on down there, like, we wanted to see what that's been like for you and how it's affected your business and how we can help. So, I know you, but why don't you go ahead and say your name and pronouns and a little bit about Under Dare, how it started, and what it is?

Marcy: My name is Marcy Darling. I use she/ they pronouns. Underdare started a couple of years ago. I have a 17-year-old son. He is trans. He came out slowly at 11. When he was 14, we were struggling to find binders for him. He wanted a specific binder, a Spectrum Outfitters binder, actually, from the UK, and at that time, Royal Mail was having a really hard time shipping to the United States. 

It was, I think it was like three-quarters of the country they weren't able to ship to. And then we checked a couple of days later, and then it was half, and a couple of days later, it was a third. A couple of days later, it was a quarter of the country. A couple of days later, it was Maryland and Minnesota. 

I am also a hairdresser. And so, I got a hold of one of my clients who lives in Pepin, Wisconsin, and I said, (which is for Canadians, Wisconsin is right next door to Minnesota,) and we're in Minneapolis, and Pepin is about an hour drive from Minneapolis, and it's actually quite a scenic route. It's a gorgeous drive down to Pepin. It's right down the Minnesota River. It's really quite lovely. 

So, I asked her if I could ship a package to her. I said, I promise it's nothing, nothing bad. And she's like, of course. So, the date arrived. She actually was driving up to the city to visit her daughter, who was going to school in St. Paul, so she just dropped it off at the house. But in the meantime, I had gotten so frustrated, I spent an entire afternoon sitting on the sofa, searching to see if there was a place that you could go to try on binders.

Rae: Yeah.

Marcy: Like different brands, different styles.

Rae: Let me guess, no one was doing that.

Marcy: No, and I thought maybe I saw a whisper of a place out west, and maybe a whisper of a place out east, but really, there wasn't anything. So, my ADHD brain said, well, we could do that.

So, I own my own salon. I have a tiny space, but at the time, in the lower level, we had a vintage shop, and it was really big. It's hard to explain, but my salon is in the back end of a music school, and the vintage shop was underneath us and all the way to the street. So, it was really big. 

So, I talked to my son and said, “Hey, what would you think if, just in a tiny corner of the vintage shop, we put in a place where you could come and shop for binders?” And he was like, “Oh my God, that would be so cool.” So, we started talking about that, and about a week later, the owner of the music school came to me, and she said, “Hey, I know you've been struggling with the vintage shop, and I need more practice rooms. What would you think if I took over some of the basement?” I was like, I mean, it was a no-brainer, because it was going to cut my rent almost in half. 

I was like, oh shit. So, I talked to my kiddo. I'm like, “Hey, Sarah needs more space for the music school. She's going to take some of the basement.” He's like, “Well, are we still going to be able to do the binder thing?” I'm like, “I'll figure it out, kiddo.” And so, I had no idea how much space I was going to have if I was going to have any of the basement. 

So, when all was said and done, I had 90 square feet. Plus a fitting room, because I had a storage area down there, too, which I cut into two-thirds, which was left for my storage area, and I knocked off part of it for the fitting room. And so, everything was down in there. 

So, when I was working through this, I was talking to a couple of people that I know, a couple of artists, because in the salon, I also have a bunch of local arts and gifts. And so, a bunch of local artists. One of them, whose name is Cat Rocketship. They're an artist from Des Moines, and I've known them for a dozen years or so. So, I got a hold of Cat and asked if they could talk to me a little bit about what I was doing. 

And the first thing they said was, “Oh my god, it never even occurred to me until you emailed me and said, what would you think about having a store where you can try stuff on and buy it?” And that was super cool. So, it was really great to have that conversation, you know, kind of talking about what kinds of stuff I would need and what kind of marketing I would need to be doing. 

And then another artist who goes under the moniker Sick Kitty Ceramics, Ollie Schmincke. Ollie's also a poet. I sat down and talked to Ollie. Ollie lives in St. Paul. And Ollie was like, “Well, what about the femmes?” I'm like, crap. I totally didn’t think about that. This was for my kid. It didn't even occur to me that if I did this, I needed gaffs too. And so, I had to learn a whole new, like, vocabulary and a whole new everything. And so, that was really interesting and eye-opening. And I'm still learning. And there are a lot more items and concerns around trans femme wear.

Rae: Yeah. There's much less information out there. There haven't been studies done about that stuff the way that there have been around binders. So, I get it. Yeah, we want to make sure that we've got support for everyone.

Marcy: And I recently learned that a gaff is different from tucking underwear.

Rae: Yeah. I mean, there's also, like, so many different products on the market just recently that people are learning really quickly about different styles of construction and all of that. There's a lot to update. 

Marcy: Yeah, so, I'm also constantly learning new things. And I was just asked, actually. I was talking to a group of middle schoolers at a middle school. And there's all this talk about how long can you wear a binder? And it depends on the question, depends on the binder. How long can you wear a gaff?

Rae: Well, I mean, this is the thing. We don't have the same long-term studies, but it's always as short a time as you can safely wear it. This is what I always tell people. You know your body best, and you know your safety best. And if you need to be wearing that gaff for reasons, you need to be wearing that gaff for reasons. 

But they always say eight hours, but that's because that's a normal work day or a school day for most people. As soon as you can take it off, take it off and switch out to something more comfortable. But also, we know it has a lot to do with other factors, like how many days a week are you wearing it? Are you in a really sweaty, active environment? What are your breaks like? What's the gaff like? There are so many different things that go into it.

Marcy: Right. And I was and I said, you know, that's something that I don't exactly know. I also know that when you go to the bathroom, you're taking it down. So you get some breathing room when you're wearing a binder. You're not taking it off during the day either. 

Rae: Yeah, so you do get more of a chance to readjust. But I mean, the thing is, like, no one wants to do these long-term medical studies on trans femme people or people who use gaffs. And so we just don't have the info. We have community information, and we're really smart. And we know a lot. But it's not formalized in the same way. 

Marcy: But it was the first time that I've talked to a few like middle school groups. And it was the first time that I had femme students. It's mostly non-binary and trans masc kids who are looking at binders. So it's the first time that I brought femme garments with me. So that was really heartening that they were kids, femme kids who wanted to come and talk about that. Which is really cool.

Rae: Like, how has it changed from those origins? Now I know you stock so many different products, like I can see in the background there, like I know all these brands. These are great brands. These are trans owned brands. What was important for you to bring in, and where have you come from those origins?

Marcy: What's really important for me is, well, you know, sustainability. Sustainability is my number one thing. Sustainability, not only in the fabrics themselves and how they are manufactured, but in the companies themselves. I look for companies that have sustainable business practices, that pay their workers sustainable living wages, and that are just all-around great people. I want to know that the garments are made well and made by people who care about the environment and care about their workers. That is my number one goal. Ethical consumption.

Rae: Exactly. It's a very broad term. There are a lot of things that fall under that. But I think like you and I have a very similar opinion of this, and we talk about this. It's like, there are all of these different categories that we need to be checking out. And I'm sure that people don't need to be like 100 percent in every category. But you look at a company, and you're like, how can I tell that they're doing it right? How can I tell that their ethics and their values are rooted in the community or rooted in fair labor? As much sustainability as we can pack into those garments and still put them on the market. Like no one's going to be perfect, but we try.

Marcy: So, Untag from the Netherlands, they just recently, it was during the pandemic, they used to sew in-house. And they just started, they have a place in Poland, I think it's Poland, that sews for them now. But it is a place where their workers are paid a living wage. But they sew all of their mockups, and everything is sewn in-house and tested in-house. But they just started getting too big to do everything. And she used to do more than the gender affirming garments. And then during the pandemic, she's not doing anything other than that anymore. Which is, which is really cool. She's a really neat person. Have you met her?

Rae: No, not yet. Not yet.

Marcy: She's amazing.

Rae: You know, any other trans brands, I’m like, reach out to me, we need to have a conversation. Yeah, that's amazing. Okay. So, I mean, we've been working together for a couple of years now. And I think we have a similar goal of like, it's really important more now than ever to be offering accessible gender gear. And you were saying how that's changed for you just in the offerings of the healthcare, the public healthcare system in Minneapolis, for trans and gender diverse people, and how now our products become frontline healthcare. So can you talk a little bit about what that's been like?

Marcy: Oh, yeah, just recently with the Children's Minnesota program. And yeah, they just as of I think the end of February, they're pausing gender affirming care for minors. And it's all about money, which really blows. Excuse my language. Which means all of the other clinics are going to become more crowded. And I'm happy to share the clinic with people who need it. But it's really it was really challenging a few years ago when so many states stopped gender affirming care for minors.

Rae: Now, trans people are moving and changing states just to access care. 

Marcy: Oh, my gosh, we have so many people, every month, I see trans people who have just moved here. To Minnesota.

Rae: And now they're losing all that public health access. And like we were saying before, that puts us as like frontline care providers in a way that, like, we were never trained to do that. We were never expecting that. But you know, the more that they lack access to things like HRT and surgeries, they're going to come for gaffs and binders, because that's what you feel safe in the meantime, you know.

Marcy: I've learned. When I first started doing this, this book had just come out.

Rae: Oh, yeah. It’s practically the binder bible.

Marcy: The binder bible, exactly. My massage therapist is friends with this person. 

Rae: It's fantastic. They did a lot of research.

Marcy: Yeah. And that's how I learned everything I learned when I first got into this. Because I needed to know it. You know, I didn't know what I didn't know. Until I needed to know it. 

Rae: And now it's starting to be published information, which is great. This is Francis Reed, by the way, is the author of this book on healthy binding. Yeah, but the thing is, like, you and I are in these positions of having to like, learn firsthand a lot of like medical specific stuff, because people are coming to us as care providers, because they can't access it in the same way.

Marcy: Well, I do a 45-minute education session that you can book online, before you do your shopping appointment, where we sit, and we talk about anything you need to know about binding and safe binding, because I see a lot of parents with kids. But I also see a lot of people who are older, who are just coming out as trans.

Rae: Makes sense. And I'm so glad that they can come to you. That's a really good sign.

Marcy: I've taught a lot of people who are over 40 how to put a bra on for the first time.

Rae: That makes me so happy. You have no idea.

Marcy: I know. And it's just, it's amazing to be trusted. It's really, it's really amazing to be trusted.

Rae: Yeah, it's a responsibility. But it feels really amazing when you know that you're a safe person. And I know that, like all of this, is really part of like a broader spectrum of things that have changed since the administration changed just over a year ago in the States, where we're seeing, across the board, the cut to gender affirmation care and just in general, so much transphobia. What is it like? Like, what is the difference between now and when you started? Are you seeing a lot more of these changes because of the policies of this year?

Marcy: So our address isn't listed. It was a choice that I made before we opened. A lot of people outside don't understand that. But I'm really glad that I made that choice, especially when the administration changed. Because there are people who are afraid. 

And I'm in a very, I'm in a kind of residential neighborhood that has, I mean, the building that I'm in has a music school and some other, like, another building that has some therapists and stuff in it. But the neighborhood is mostly residential. It's a really safe neighborhood. But my customers come by appointment only. You get the address like a day or two before your appointment. 

Rae: That’s one of the things that makes your space so special, like this doesn't exist anywhere else. Like, not in the broader community. 

Marcy: Yeah, so I try, I try to make it super safe. I still have people who get really super nervous. I've had times where I spend an hour texting back and forth with somebody before they come in, before they make an appointment. Because there is anxiety because of safety issues. And even a few weeks ago, after Renee Good was shot, I did have somebody make an appointment and text me to ask me, so you're in South Minneapolis. How safe is it? What are the color that they're looking for? I mean, that's terrifying.

Rae: It's so sad.

Marcy: Yeah. I know. And luckily, we are a little bit farther south than where most of the really tough, tough stuff is happening. But it's still been here. And I can say, you're probably going to be okay. I have a parking lot. You go through a gate, you come to me. But it's up to you. It's your safety. I can meet you right at the gate, and I can walk you in. But at the same time, I can't keep you safe.

Rae: It just feels like when we're watching from up here, it just feels like all bets are off. Like anything can happen anymore. And it's scary for us watching. And I can't even imagine what that's like for you guys down there. And if you want to, and if you can, do you want to speak a little bit to what it's been like just to witness this incredible movement and pushback against the ICE occupation?

Marcy: I love my community. I love Minneapolis. I would not want to live anywhere but Minneapolis. Our favorite breakfast place has been surrounded by community because it's run by Hispanic women. 

Before Renee Good was shot, somebody watched some ICE agents pull their masks down to go in there. They were breakfasting one day and then raiding the next day. And so somebody watched them go in there, and the neighborhood came out full force. And then for the next, I think they even still have people driving the workers to and from work. 

They have their doors locked. They're letting people in when they come to the door. And these people, we consider them our family because we go there every weekend. We know the owner really well. And then in the middle of it, she had to go to Mexico to visit her ailing mom. And she's a US citizen. 

And just seeing that and seeing that terror and seeing that fewer people are coming in. And we have friends who live right in the center of everything. And the husband is getting in his car every day and following ICE agents. And now they're getting up in his face. And their kids, their adult kids, are at every protest.

Rae: And I know that we're seeing like 1% of what's going on down there. What we're seeing is incredible. This mobilization that I don't think any of us have seen on this scale. And it's very obvious that there were support networks and mutual aid happening way before this in order for folks to be able to now mobilize at this level. But it must just be so pervasive. You're saying you don't even live that close to where the majority of this is happening, and it's still affecting you in such a huge way.

Marcy: I went outside the night that they were doing a candlelight vigil for Alex Peretti. And I have a phobia of being around a lot of people. But I went outside and stood up on a hill a little farther away. And I stood outside with my real candles. And I was just standing outside in the frigging freezing cold. And some of my neighbors were walking down the street. And so I walked down because they were going to go see if they could find some other neighbors. And we stood outside for like 45 minutes, just all together. And that's what we do. 

Even my mom, who lives 30 minutes north of the city, she's got her candle on her doorstep. And there's so much community. I've been reading a lot about community lately, even before all of this, because it's, it's something that is pervasive on the Underdare website. Because I truly, I truly believe in community and the power of community. And how we really need to take care of each other. And we need to watch out for each other. And no matter what. 

And I think that I thought growing up, like, with my mom, my mom is really, she's a caretaker. Like, she, that's what she does. I'm a caretaker. That's what I do. Minneapolis is a caretaker. I mean, we take care of people. And if you come here and you live here, we take care of you. But if you fucking mess with us, we're not going to take it. 

Rae: We're seeing that now. 

Marcy: And it's really hard that these ICE people are still here. And they're, that it's just so friggin nasty.

Rae: It’s awful.

Marcy: And yeah, I have a lack of words. I mean, I have a lot of words. 

Rae: But we haven’t seen anything like this. I think it's really hard to contextualize.

Marcy: Yeah, because there are so many agents here. And they're so brutal. And they are, there's, it feels like there are no consequences. And because there was this tiny drawback, you know, the tiny drawdown, what last week, of 700 agents, which was barely, it's like a quarter, maybe. It doesn't make, it didn't make a difference at all. And the news media have become bored with it.

Rae: Yeah, we're seeing fewer and fewer stories here. But I know that's why it's more important than ever that we keep talking about what's going on and keep hearing from people like you, who are actually there. Because it's hard being, especially like in Canada, looking on and saying, like, are we even getting the right information? Are we getting enough information? Like, is there so much more happening that we don't even know about?

Marcy: Well, and now I'm hearing about all of the pets that are being left behind.

Rae: Ugh. Yeah, right. It's so awful.

Marcy: And so there are people who are afraid to leave their houses, and people don't want to shop. And, and that's, that's affecting the immigrant-owned businesses, because they're afraid to open, but it's also affecting all of the small businesses around. Not only those businesses. And it's like, since the administration took over last year, it's almost like one of their goals has been ruin all small businesses.

Rae: Yeah, it's been rough seeing how many places have closed, even just the places, the retail spaces, and the NGOs that we work with, and seeing how many people have closed or lost funding. And that being indicative of a much broader picture, I'm sure. I'm thrilled that you are still here, and we are still here. And, you know, it's not even as bad for us up here in Canada, but we're still feeling it. We’re still really struggling.

Marcy: Yeah. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Rae: And you and I were talking about like, you know, we do what we have to do to get by because this is more than just livelihood. This is an investment in community and in mutual aid. What we do is so important now more than ever. And how can we keep going and keep going from a sustainable place when everyone across the board: Yeah, we know people don't want to buy clothes right now. Like we get that.

Marcy: Right. Right, we need food, we need gas, we need growth, we need… yeah.

Rae: Yeah. Yeah, this is not sustainable. And it's understandable, you know, our business, we're facing the same thing, like, pushing marketing right now is so hard, because we understand that that's not where people's heads are, and that's why we're doing things like this, where we're creating educational resources and talking to people.

 But one of the things that I wanted to think about, for those of us outside of what's going on there, I think it's important not just to see it as this kind of individual issue, like, this one city is erupting into this, like resistance against fascism. But instead to connect, and especially as queer and trans people, to our direct community members.

And that's why I really wanted to talk to you specifically. We need to see that relationship between the struggles that you're facing and the struggles here in Canada, the struggles everywhere around the world, where we're seeing cuts to gender-affirming healthcare, we're seeing transphobia and queer phobia, homophobia everywhere, really on the increase, kind of like, in tandem with fascism. I want people to be able to relate that to the faces and the stories of the people who are experiencing it the most.

That being said, I really want to find a way of supporting your business, and I want people to know how they can come to you and support not just the business, but I know that there's people who want to come to you for gender-affirming gear and don't have the resources or have lost access. So, um, how can we set up a program? How can we get people to contribute to what you guys are doing?

Marcy: You can either directly donate, because I do have a sliding fee for people who are un or underemployed.

Rae: Okay, that's great.

Marcy: Or they can buy gift certificates. I do have a gift certificate link on the website, and then if you want to donate it in the “To:” line, you just put the Underdare email, which is hello@underdare(dot)rodeo. Then I can give that gift certificate to somebody who needs it.

Rae: This was the idea that I had, where I really want to be able to have people who live outside the city be able to contribute directly to people who are on the ground in Minneapolis. And especially to queer and trans people. 

So I think it would be amazing, and I think that we talked a little bit about creating a callout and a list for people who want to come in and get gender-affirming gear and don't have access. So we'll collect some names, and we'll have some sort of a sign-up where people can put themselves on the list. 

And then hopefully this is going out to lots of people around the globe, lots in Canada and the States, but we have customers all over the world. And if they want to help, then they can send their money directly to one of those gender diverse people to get them the gender affirmation that they need, give them a little bit of a break from what's been going on. It's a way of, like, connecting us through community in a very tangible way. We say this word all the time, right? Community, community, community. Like, what does it mean when we actually put it into practice, right? 

Like, we are businesses, but we're, like, from a mutual aid standpoint, and that's, like, a bit of a mindfuck to wrap your head around, but this is when we can actually practice that. From a very, like, physical way.

Marcy: Right. And people have fun when they're here.

Rae: Yes, of course. Yeah. I want people to have that experience; they need a break. Yeah, so we'll, we'll put all that information if people do want to help out. 

I have one more question before we go. If you could think of, like, the most beautiful future for gender care and gender expansive expression, what would you wish for all of our incredible, beautiful, gender-diverse people out there?

Marcy: I would wish that my store didn't have to exist.

Rae: Awww, Marcy! 

Marcy: I would wish that you could go to any store ever and get what you would need.

Rae: Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly.

Marcy: And that's, and I've said that a lot, it's like, you should be able to go into the women's section and buy your tucking underwear, and you should be able to go into the men's section and buy your binders.

Rae: Oh, I didn't know I was gonna cry so much in this interview!

Marcy: And… Um, and… That's… I mean… Period.

Rae: That's what we want.

Marcy: That's what I firmly fucking believe. And, yeah, a store like mine can exist for somebody who is brand new and wants some privacy and wants some education. But it shouldn't be taboo. Trans women are women, trans men are men, and fuck anybody who doesn't think so.

Rae: Can we get that on a t-shirt? I would sell those t-shirts. We need that, yeah.

Marcy: I mean, I look at my kid, and nobody can tell me that he's not a boy. So, my son, a little backstory. When my son started taking hormones, like, all of a sudden, there's this little, more of a little spring in his step. He was 14, and he actually had top surgery last summer. And I realized a couple of months ago that he is the kid he was when he was, like, 5 or 6.

Rae: Oh, is that so beautiful to see?

Marcy: He is just this amazing, outgoing, happy kid. 

Rae: He’s like, coming back to himself, that, like, real, true, creative spark that we have when we're really little.

Marcy: Yeah, and he just, and he's always drawn people to him. But it's, like, even more so now. And he has a boyfriend!

Rae: Oh! I'm sure he'll love his mom talking about this on the internet. It's okay, we'll redact all names. You're so proud of you, though, we ship this relationship to whoever you are.

Marcy: But yeah, and it's just like, you see that, and just f all those haters out there, just haters. I know I’m doing it right, I am. I see it every day. I see it every day when this beatuiful 17-year-old boy is so joyful.

Rae: No. Seriously.

Marcy: I mean, what 17-year-old boy is joyful?!

Rae: Yeah, it's so true! In this political moment?! In your city? I think that's a rarity. I think that's incredible.

Marcy: Right. So, um, yeah.

Rae: That's amazing. You're really doing it right.

Marcy: And so that part of me feels really, really good.

Rae: Yeah. I am just so proud to be working with you, and to have found you and learned your story, and I'm so proud of the work that we do separately and together. It's so important to find other people who are doing similar work, you know? Like, I felt really lost for a long time without that, and when I started talking to you and talking to other people, like, it really changed for me to know that there are other people out there who, like, have the heart.

Marcy: Yeah, I, um, you bring me joy as well.

Rae: Yeah, I'm really, I'm really grateful for this, and I think a lot of people are really grateful for the work that you do in the community. And I really hope that we can do a lot to bring some more folks your way.

Marcy: Yes. Thank you, Rae. I really appreciate it.

Rae: So, thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah, of course. Um, I think we'll say goodbye for now. And thank you so much for being with us.

Marcy: Thank you for having me.

Click here to donate a gift certificate to a gender diverse person in Minneapolis.

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